I think they're directly related in that both are telling stories. They're both important but are gradually taking on different (new) forms.
At the end of the day, the goal is to tell a story and get people engaged in that story. If your story sucks, no one will listen.
Think of the last movie you saw. Did it have a great story? If so, did you tell anyone about how great it was?
Both marketing and PR have a hand in that situation, right?
Danny
· 9 months ago
That's the very point, Tim - as you say, if you saw the movie and liked it, you'll talk about it. That's where the want factor and need solution comes into play - they want to know if it was any good and you can provide that need.
And what you've just done is offered great PR for that movie by marketing it to your friends.
Julia Stewart
· 9 months ago
They are absolutely connected -- every marketing effort needs to have a PR element and every PR program needs to be integrated into overall marketing executions.
There are no walls between disciplines anymore - advertising, interactive, branding, PR and marketing all have to work together in a symbiotic and connected way to produce results. Specialists in each discipline have to work together as a team on a daily basis. Bottom line - they all impact each other and need each other to be successful.
Danny
· 9 months ago
That's a key point you make there, Julia - every team does impact on each other's results. I think that's why more companies are now looking at agencies that have an integrated approach (or can offer one via outsourcing) , as opposed to Agency A for marketing, Agency B for PR, Agency C for advertising, and so on.
Factor in the cost versus service versus efficiency effect, and I feel we'll see a lot more of the symbiotic collaborations you mention. Which, at the end of the day, can only be a good thing.
Heather Whaling
· 9 months ago
Danny,
I, too, believe that PR and marketing can co-exist. In fact, I think you get better results when the two work together. Not only does the right hand need to know what the left hand is doing, but the two should be complementing each other. If the marketing team is focused on a certain product or message, shouldn't the PR coincide with those efforts?
Taking this a step further, where do you see social media fitting into mix? While some want to say neither PR nor marketing folks are equipped to handle a company's social media outreach, I tend to disagree. PR isn't about shoving corporate messages down someone's throat. It's about educating, providing information and increasing awareness (among other things, but you get my point). At the same time, companies that engage in social media want to participate in conversations to develop relationships with consumers -- but they also want to get their messages and points of view across.
As we get more and more "tools" in the marketing toolbox, I think the lines between disciplines will blur. However, that's not necessary a bad thing. An integrated approach to communication really is the best approach.
I think social media is playing a key role in helping niches and professions move forward in a way that benefits everyone, Heather. Sticking your head in the sand and saying that "It's always worked before" doesn't really offer a valid argument.
Yes, there are still times when individual and traditional approaches will work best - but as you say, these instances are becoming blurrier all the time.
I use the phrase "for the conversation age" in my blog's tagline; I think we're all part of this global conversation now, and if we don't talk and interact with each other properly, there will be casualties.
Businesses are beginning to realize this; isn't it about time the agencies for these businesses realized it as well?
Heather
· 9 months ago
Totally agree! Thanks for the thought-provoking post. :)
Jamie Kim
· 9 months ago
Danny,
Public relations and marketing seem like two fields that are gradually going down the wedding aisle. There are so many PR students who are also minoring in marketing at my university. Why? Because we all hear that being educated in both fields will help us out in the real world where the two industries are most likely going to be integrated in some way.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Jamie
Danny Brown
· 9 months ago
That's encouraging to hear, Jamie. I've written about this before, that the "new breed" of interns and professionals coming through are the ones that can really encourage our industries to work more effectively with each other.
To know that this is actively happening is, as I say, encouraging and can only mean good things to come. Thanks for letting me know.
Frank Reed
· 9 months ago
At the end of the day, it's all about sales. We can talk about promotion and marketing all day long but do they create a conversion? A conversion whether it a transaction, a lead generated or another step to the conversion is the goal and if it takes marketing and PR to play together then so be it.
We live in interesting times. We are trying to figure out how to make all of these new media avenues play together which takes time but no one has the time to give since revenue is hard enough to come by and is creating major short tern urgency.
How can we speed the process to revenue generation? Theory is one thing and results are a complete other thing.
Thanks for the conversation, Danny.
Danny Brown
· 9 months ago
Interesting point, Frank, and of course very valid. Obviously we can measure a PR or marketing campaign's success with metrics, yet should that take into account "filed for later" examples that turn into sales further down the line, long after a particular promotion?
The thing about revenue - would it be easier to come by if the message wasn't as fractured with multiple agencies or departments vying for the same eyeballs? Would there be more to spare with one collaborative department as opposed to Marketing Director and team; PR director and team; Sales Director and team?
If we could get rid of a lot of the red tape that goes on with inter-departmental approval, hopefully that would go a long way of speeding up the process and allowing the sales to happen. I guess until more agencies or businesses are willing to do that, then it's just an unanswered question.
Tim Jahn
· 9 months ago
I think the idea of a "sale down the road" is becoming more frequent now when you think about relationships. Building relationships may not guarantee a sale this instant but rather sometime down the road.
This is particularly hard to measure because it can be difficult to tie this later happening to the action that caused it to happen.
I love the conversations that happen here, Danny. Thought provoking and always something fresh. Thanks :)
Danny
· 9 months ago
It's that Catch 22 situation, I guess. People want instant success, yet all too often that fire sale approach can hinder as opposed to help.
Long-term growth and stability (man, I sound like an accountant!) is definitely key; but do all companies have that luxury? Perhaps with the cost savings offered by social media (financially, at least) there will be longer stays of execution for businesses to have a chance at building these long-term relationships.
RE. the conversation, I've always said the comments are the real juice - I'm damned lucky to have such a great community and I'm happy to be a part of it. :)
Andrew Weaver
· 9 months ago
Great post as usual, Danny.
On the subject of the marriage of PR and marketing, I'm seeing it first hand too. My wife is a PR major with a minor in marketing. She was encouraged to go that route by the university and there are many others doing the same.
The next few years will be very interesting in my opinion. Especially when we're able to look back and see the changes being brought on by social media and the Internet in general.
Danny
· 9 months ago
It's really interesting to see Universities beginning to offer this advice. Gen Y and the newcomers to the industries really do have a chance to make some huge steps for integrating better methods.
Of course, the next step is in helping to show the benefits of "less really does equal more" and prove that it's a workable approach. But we're already seeing that a lot of the old methods aren't as effective as they used to be. Perhaps the timing is right - as you say, we'll soon find out.
Tom Vanlerberghe
· 9 months ago
Though they seem to go hand in hand, and rightfully so, they should work together, but the same job should not be in one person's hands. The marketing manager and pr manager should sit at the same desk and be in constant communication, but there's still a big difference in their execution. Like you describe the foundation is the same, that's telling a great story, too bad a lot of companies don't get this...
Reckon there's a problem with education too, feel it gets too outdated. Marketing students still have to learn the 4 P's, how a product should fulfil a basic need,... A need explains why you buy a t-shirt, but not why you chose a grey one or a yellow one. Start at the source... schools.
Danny
· 9 months ago
I'd say there are some instances where the two jobs could be done by the same person, though I'd place that more with smaller boutique agencies over larger corporate ones. I'm fortunate, for example, to have my background in corporate marketing and a degree in marketing, to which I added my PR accreditation. I know there are a few others in a similar position.
But yes, I agree, for companies to have distinctly differing departments that don't work together, that's one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. Usually a lot of these hurdles is because neither will "give way" and accept the other as a legitimate partner - it's more about the one-upmanship of "my industry is better than yours".
The education thing is an interesting one. You're right, it all begins with the education, which is why it's encouraging to read the comments by both Drew Weaver and Jamie Kim. I know there are many more universities going this route now (there are two excellent ones in my city, for example), so hopefully the newer breed of professionals coming through can start to bridge the gap even more.
Although it'll still come down to the existing professionals actually wanting to adapt and work together...
Scott Hepburn
· 9 months ago
I'm with you, Danny. While marketing and PR will always be distinct, each with their specialists, the lines are definitely blurring. But I don't think it's a new trend.
People ask me whether I'm in marketing or PR. My answer always references my clients: When you're a small business owner, you can't afford the luxury of distinguishing between the two. It's ALL marketing. It's ALL public relations. EVERY conversation, every piece of collateral, every interaction is an opportunity to build, deepen or capitalize on a relationship. The small business owner is focused on one thing: growing his business. Call it PR, marketing, or whatever you like. It's all the same to him.
Social media accelerates the blurring. It turns every individual who didn't have a voice before -- including small business owners, employees, bright minds with introvert personalities -- into an instant communicator. And, more importantly, it dissolves the barriers between consumers and the brands they use every day.
Suddenly, neither marketing nor public relations seems an apt description. You have to be able to perform both functions with the same tools. The trick is that you have to be able to market to people without coming across as a marketer. Use your social media tools carefully, and your customers will think you're just being responsive, accessible, and engaged (PR type stuff)...all the while turning them into evangelists for your brand and disseminators of your message (marketing type stuff).
Danny
· 9 months ago
You've hit the nail on the head perfectly, Scott - I knew there was a reason I love reading your stuff! ;-)
It does seem that most of the innovation is coming from the smaller business area, regardless of industry. As you say, there's no real distinction between what you're offering clients - you do have to have your multi-faceted head on if you want to meet their needs.
The trick is in getting the mix right, but more and more that seems to be happening and I wouldn't be surprised if 5-10 years from now, we're looking at a more enveloped description for what we all do.
All Comments
At the end of the day, the goal is to tell a story and get people engaged in that story. If your story sucks, no one will listen.
Think of the last movie you saw. Did it have a great story? If so, did you tell anyone about how great it was?
Both marketing and PR have a hand in that situation, right?
And what you've just done is offered great PR for that movie by marketing it to your friends.
There are no walls between disciplines anymore - advertising, interactive, branding, PR and marketing all have to work together in a symbiotic and connected way to produce results. Specialists in each discipline have to work together as a team on a daily basis. Bottom line - they all impact each other and need each other to be successful.
Factor in the cost versus service versus efficiency effect, and I feel we'll see a lot more of the symbiotic collaborations you mention. Which, at the end of the day, can only be a good thing.
I, too, believe that PR and marketing can co-exist. In fact, I think you get better results when the two work together. Not only does the right hand need to know what the left hand is doing, but the two should be complementing each other. If the marketing team is focused on a certain product or message, shouldn't the PR coincide with those efforts?
Taking this a step further, where do you see social media fitting into mix? While some want to say neither PR nor marketing folks are equipped to handle a company's social media outreach, I tend to disagree. PR isn't about shoving corporate messages down someone's throat. It's about educating, providing information and increasing awareness (among other things, but you get my point). At the same time, companies that engage in social media want to participate in conversations to develop relationships with consumers -- but they also want to get their messages and points of view across.
As we get more and more "tools" in the marketing toolbox, I think the lines between disciplines will blur. However, that's not necessary a bad thing. An integrated approach to communication really is the best approach.
Heather (@prtini)
Yes, there are still times when individual and traditional approaches will work best - but as you say, these instances are becoming blurrier all the time.
I use the phrase "for the conversation age" in my blog's tagline; I think we're all part of this global conversation now, and if we don't talk and interact with each other properly, there will be casualties.
Businesses are beginning to realize this; isn't it about time the agencies for these businesses realized it as well?
Public relations and marketing seem like two fields that are gradually going down the wedding aisle. There are so many PR students who are also minoring in marketing at my university. Why? Because we all hear that being educated in both fields will help us out in the real world where the two industries are most likely going to be integrated in some way.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Jamie
To know that this is actively happening is, as I say, encouraging and can only mean good things to come. Thanks for letting me know.
We live in interesting times. We are trying to figure out how to make all of these new media avenues play together which takes time but no one has the time to give since revenue is hard enough to come by and is creating major short tern urgency.
How can we speed the process to revenue generation? Theory is one thing and results are a complete other thing.
Thanks for the conversation, Danny.
The thing about revenue - would it be easier to come by if the message wasn't as fractured with multiple agencies or departments vying for the same eyeballs? Would there be more to spare with one collaborative department as opposed to Marketing Director and team; PR director and team; Sales Director and team?
If we could get rid of a lot of the red tape that goes on with inter-departmental approval, hopefully that would go a long way of speeding up the process and allowing the sales to happen. I guess until more agencies or businesses are willing to do that, then it's just an unanswered question.
This is particularly hard to measure because it can be difficult to tie this later happening to the action that caused it to happen.
I love the conversations that happen here, Danny. Thought provoking and always something fresh. Thanks :)
Long-term growth and stability (man, I sound like an accountant!) is definitely key; but do all companies have that luxury? Perhaps with the cost savings offered by social media (financially, at least) there will be longer stays of execution for businesses to have a chance at building these long-term relationships.
RE. the conversation, I've always said the comments are the real juice - I'm damned lucky to have such a great community and I'm happy to be a part of it. :)
On the subject of the marriage of PR and marketing, I'm seeing it first hand too. My wife is a PR major with a minor in marketing. She was encouraged to go that route by the university and there are many others doing the same.
The next few years will be very interesting in my opinion. Especially when we're able to look back and see the changes being brought on by social media and the Internet in general.
Of course, the next step is in helping to show the benefits of "less really does equal more" and prove that it's a workable approach. But we're already seeing that a lot of the old methods aren't as effective as they used to be. Perhaps the timing is right - as you say, we'll soon find out.
Reckon there's a problem with education too, feel it gets too outdated. Marketing students still have to learn the 4 P's, how a product should fulfil a basic need,... A need explains why you buy a t-shirt, but not why you chose a grey one or a yellow one. Start at the source... schools.
But yes, I agree, for companies to have distinctly differing departments that don't work together, that's one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. Usually a lot of these hurdles is because neither will "give way" and accept the other as a legitimate partner - it's more about the one-upmanship of "my industry is better than yours".
The education thing is an interesting one. You're right, it all begins with the education, which is why it's encouraging to read the comments by both Drew Weaver and Jamie Kim. I know there are many more universities going this route now (there are two excellent ones in my city, for example), so hopefully the newer breed of professionals coming through can start to bridge the gap even more.
Although it'll still come down to the existing professionals actually wanting to adapt and work together...
People ask me whether I'm in marketing or PR. My answer always references my clients: When you're a small business owner, you can't afford the luxury of distinguishing between the two. It's ALL marketing. It's ALL public relations. EVERY conversation, every piece of collateral, every interaction is an opportunity to build, deepen or capitalize on a relationship. The small business owner is focused on one thing: growing his business. Call it PR, marketing, or whatever you like. It's all the same to him.
Social media accelerates the blurring. It turns every individual who didn't have a voice before -- including small business owners, employees, bright minds with introvert personalities -- into an instant communicator. And, more importantly, it dissolves the barriers between consumers and the brands they use every day.
Suddenly, neither marketing nor public relations seems an apt description. You have to be able to perform both functions with the same tools. The trick is that you have to be able to market to people without coming across as a marketer. Use your social media tools carefully, and your customers will think you're just being responsive, accessible, and engaged (PR type stuff)...all the while turning them into evangelists for your brand and disseminators of your message (marketing type stuff).
It does seem that most of the innovation is coming from the smaller business area, regardless of industry. As you say, there's no real distinction between what you're offering clients - you do have to have your multi-faceted head on if you want to meet their needs.
The trick is in getting the mix right, but more and more that seems to be happening and I wouldn't be surprised if 5-10 years from now, we're looking at a more enveloped description for what we all do.